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 Post subject: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:05 pm 
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2nd LIEUTENANT
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In 2009 I introduced in my German forum a "completely personal" composer ranking. Some weeks ago I made a new one. For me it was a matter of fun, not to be taken too seriously, but it may show you some of my preferences. Now I will do a bit copycat and give you the list. In brackets you see the positions of 2009, three years later the positions of December 2012. Now I copycat this list:

1. (3 ).Brahms
2. (4.) Beethoven
3. (7.) Mozart
4. (10 ).Bach
5. (1. )Händel
6. (31.) Joseph Haydn
7. (5. ) Schubert
8. (6. )Schumann
9. (8.) Purcell
10. (12.)Mahler

My last favourite Handel has lost a bit of ground but Haydn makes a big step forward.

11. (2.)Bruckner
12. (13).Strauss
13. (19.) Sibelius
14. (14.) Verdi
15. (25.) Dvorak
16. (11.)Wagner
17. (47).Grieg
18. (9. )Schostakowitsch
19. (18.)Ives
20. (21.)Skrjabin

A lot of things similar, Bruckner looses some ground. Grieg makes a big step forward, he is such a wonderfull master of tune and I am more acquainted now with his wonderfull songs and chamber music.


21. (26.) Tschaikovski
22. (35.) Nielsen
23. (40.)Chopin
24. (16.)Puccini
25. (23.)Mussorgski
26. (15.)Ravel
27. (20.)Prokoview
28. ( new) Bellini
29. (28.)Debussy
30. (32.) Strawinski

Nielsen and Chopin make a step forward. Bellini will probably loose his good position next time

31. (50.) Villa Lobos
32. (34.)Malcolm Arnold
33. (36.)Franz Liszt
34. (39.) Saint Saens
35 (24.)Vaughan Williams
36. (29.)Cesar Franck
37. (17.)Elgar
38. (27.)Rachmaninov
39. (44.)Bartok
40. (64.)Borodin

Villa Lobos has won some positions. By the way I have forgotten Boccherini, who is also a sometimes wonderfull ( sometimes boring) discovery. I may place him somewhere in the 30es

41. (43.) Mjaskovski
42. (37.)Holst
43. (49.)Messiaen
44. (52.)Monteverdi
45. (38.)Rameau
46. (46.)Mendelssohn
47. (54.)Dowland
48. (55.)Reger
49. (22.)Schönberg
50. (56).Franz Schmidt

Schönberg has lost.

51. (33.)Berlioz
52, (41.)Janacek
53. (48.)Georges Bizet
54. ( new) Kalkbrenner
55. (30.)Delius
56. (42).Barber
57. (51.)Faure
58. (53.)Bax
59. (57.)Britten
60. (58.)Domenico Scarlatti

Delius couldn't hold his good position

61, (59.)Rimski Korsakov
62. (60.) Kodaly
63 ( 67.) Howard Hanson
64. (61.)Carl Maria von Weber
65, (62.)Jacques Offenbach
66. (63.)Johann Strauss
67. (65.)Berg
68.Gershwin
69. ( 76.).Martinu
70 (86.)David Diamond

The longer the list lasts the less it is to be taken too seriously

71. (85.) Roy Harris
72. (45. )Suk
73. (68.)Weill
74. (69.)Satie
75 (70.)Hindemith
76 (71.)Marais
77 (72.John Adams
78. (74.)Vivaldi
79 (75.)Falla
80. (78.)CPE Bach

Suk has lost a lot of place

81. (73.)Gliere
82. (79.)Glazunov
83. (80.)Gluck
84. (84.)Walton
85. ( neu) albeniz
86. (82.)Honegger
87. (83.)Telemann
88. (77).Lambert
89. (89.)William Schuman
90. (88.)Pfitzner


91. (90.)Kalinikov
92. ( neu)Moscheles
93. (91.) Korngold
94. (92.)Milhaud
95 (93.)Lutoslawski
96. (103).Tavener
97. (89.)Lehar
98. (94.)Corelli
99. (95.)Dutellieux
100. (81.)Donizetti
101. (96).Liadov
102- (97.)Lully
103 (98.)Couperin
104 (99.=Charpentier
105.Auber
106 (102).Magnard
107 (101).Rautavaara
108 (104.)Gorecki
109 (105.)Martuzzi

Auber I should have leave out, I know too little, Martuzzi is sometimes nice but secondrate. Liadov is quite nice. Lully was boring but maybe he is better than I think. As I already told, the list shouldn't be taken too seriously, at least the longer it get's. I will make another list in some years. I could have add some of the new discoveries like Litollf, Moscheles, Pierne and so on, I like them certainly more than Martucci but know them too little.

Comments?

Florestan


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:45 pm 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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First point - I'm not convinced of your enthusiasm for Brahms, you have made not one post in any of the Brahms topics here! :o

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:08 pm 
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2nd LIEUTENANT
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No, I haven't but I haven't left much postings here up to now. I am anyway not in the position to have ten thousend CDs, so I can't compete in this discussion who has made say the best violin sonatas by Brahms.

For Brahms I had for many years the Brilliant Masterworksbox and I have for some months the Brahms/ Rubinstein box. I have also the Katchen box.

I must say that I have discoverd a lot of Brahms during the last years. And he becomes better and better. He has written wonderfull things, just listen to his first violin sonata ( but they are all great) or his first and third piano trio, his piano quintett and his string sextetts. And much more, Brahms really rarely has disappointed me. For this reason he is my number one in the moment. Anyway to be in the top ten is very great praise for a composer and I love all composers in the top ten very much and maybe even the top 50es or 60es.

But if you don't like my list maybe you give us your version of the list? :!: :wink:

Regards
Florestan


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:21 pm 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
No, I haven't but I haven't left much postings here up to now. I am anyway not in the position to have ten thousend CDs, so I can't compete in this discussion who has made say the best violin sonatas by Brahms.

You don't need to have the music to comment here, there are loads of videos and audio files to play at no cost!

Florestan wrote:
...I must say that I have discoverd a lot of Brahms during the last years. And he becomes better and better. He has written wonderfull things, just listen to his first violin sonata ( but they are all great) or his first and third piano trio, his piano quintett and his string sextetts. And much more, Brahms really rarely has disappointed me. For this reason he is my number one in the moment. Anyway to be in the top ten is very great praise for a composer and I love all composers in the top ten very much and maybe even the top 50es or 60es.

Anyone who can listen all the way though Brahms' three piano quartets (as I have) deserves a big medal! :D

Florestan wrote:
But if you don't like my list maybe you give us your version of the list? :!: :wink:

The twin peaks of music as far as I am concerned are Beethoven and Handel, with Beethoven leaning towards intrumental music and Handel towards vocal music, though of course there is a significant cross-over the other way in some instances (eg Handel's unsurpassed Op.6 concertos and Beethoven's unsurpassed Solemn Mass). As for those who follow third and fourth etc it doesn't really matter.

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:44 pm 
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2nd LIEUTENANT
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Hi Rod

Quote:
As for those who follow third and fourth etc it doesn't really matter.


Well, it does matter at least for me. But when I told a friend from my list he said "How could you be so cruel to judge composers in that way. Every great composer is the best one when I am listening to him."

That's true of course. I think every great composer is invaluable in having something special to say. The point for me was always that I love composers. And this composer is for me the most important whom I love most. Brahms I love alot ( There is even a French movie called "Do you love Brahms?") so he got to the top of the list, although you are completely right that there were compositions of Handel and Beethoven who are completely stunning. So perfect, so great they are. But I still love Brahms more.

But this may change, I will present a new list next year. Maybe next time Handel will be again before Bach. We will see.

Regards Florestan

P.S. I hope I will write more now. When I started in this forum I had an awfully old computer. Now I have a new much better one ( although a used one). Much quicker. I enjoy also Spotify and can listen into alot CDs. All this makes it much more fun to read and write in this forum. I look forward to that.


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:59 pm 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
Hi Rod

Well, it does matter at least for me. But when I told a friend from my list he said "How could you be so cruel to judge composers in that way. Every great composer is the best one when I am listening to him."

That's true of course. I think every great composer is invaluable in having something special to say. The point for me was always that I love composers. And this composer is for me the most important whom I love most. Brahms I love alot ( There is even a French movie called "Do you love Brahms?") so he got to the top of the list, although you are completely right that there were compositions of Handel and Beethoven who are completely stunning. So perfect, so great they are. But I still love Brahms more.

But this may change, I will present a new list next year. Maybe next time Handel will be again before Bach. We will see.

Regards Florestan

Well given the relatively poor response to the 'Monster 127' top 10 composers poll compared to previous polls asking for a fewer number, I suspect most CM fans do not have 10 favoured composers, never mind your own lengthy selection. Some people relish diversity within one musical form, but I look for simply what I believe to be the best within a variety of forms. For example I like hard rock too, but there is only one band I buy all their output.

Florestan wrote:
P.S. I hope I will write more now. When I started in this forum I had an awfully old computer. Now I have a new much better one ( although a used one). Much quicker. I enjoy also Spotify and can listen into alot CDs. All this makes it much more fun to read and write in this forum. I look forward to that.

Yes thanks for your posting bonanza today, it reminded me of the good old days when I would make 50 or more posts a day without breaking a sweat! The CM forum scene in general is much quieter now than it was a few years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:13 pm 
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2nd LIEUTENANT
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Rod Corkin wrote:
Yes thanks for your posting bonanza today, it reminded me of the good old days when I would make 50 or more posts a day without breaking a sweat! The CM forum scene in general is much quieter now than it was a few years ago.


And thank you for responding to my posts. You are right, a bit more could happen here.

I remember when I wrote in the GMG forum, somebody said "banana" to one of my post, and I felt insulted, but somebody said "banana" wouldn't be derogative. Possible, but as I am a non native speaker I cannot always judge the complete meaning of an English term. I could only say that I didn't feel comfortable in such big a forum.

This is more cosy and I certainly will in short time get to know the more frequently writing persons.

But I am also in Germany writing in a smaller forum. I wrote also in the two bigger ones, which are the German based capriccio forum and the Austrian based taminoforum. But I got back to the classical department of the Hifi-forum, not terribly crowded, but some very clever persons are writing there and I know them all and that creates a more relaxed form of writing. I really hate these big forums where you write something and somebody completely strange comments it and you don't know: Is this derogative, what kind of person is this?

This was off topic but becoming more to the topic of this thread: That's perfectly OK. If you focus on Handel and Beethoven this is completely OK. Of course I sometimes wonder of derogative remarks about Brahms, Schubert and Bach for example, but you may attack these composers as long as you don't attack me.

And you are true: The list is a bit lengthy. And you are also true: I prefer a variety of composers. And why not: You may be able to relax at say Kalkbrenner, if you have heard a difficult piece of Beethoven before. Most important for me is spontanity and I get sometimes into moods to listen to a certain composer, even if it is not a favourite composer. That holds your ears fresh, but we don't have to agree in this point.

The only thing I would like to add is that I am not desperately fighting for a music I don't like. So I listen very rarely to very modern music. I listen very rarely to very old music. There is a good piece of Palestrina I know, but I feel no real sympathy to composers like Ockeghem, Dufay, Palestrina. It's simply not my cup of tea. It may change. It may also happen that one time I listen to the second vianese school with enthusiasm. But I doubt that.

So essentially music starts for me with Monteverdi and Dowland, it "really" starts for me with Purcell and it ends for me with Skrjabin, Ives and Strawinski. And Malcolm Arnold and John Adams of course, but these composers doesn't represent this kind of modern music, I don't like. But I like some pieces of Messiaen and even Schnittke, they may become more important for me, but this is something I don't know. As I said: I am spontaneaus.

Your attitude is differant, you prefer two very important composer, Beethoven and Handel. Nothing wrong with that, a forum can only profitize by differant attitudes.

Regards Florestan


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:00 am 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
And thank you for responding to my posts. You are right, a bit more could happen here.

I remember when I wrote in the GMG forum, somebody said "banana" to one of my post, and I felt insulted, but somebody said "banana" wouldn't be derogative. Possible, but as I am a non native speaker I cannot always judge the complete meaning of an English term. I could only say that I didn't feel comfortable in such big a forum.

My unpleasant experience at GMG, and other major CM forums, is the reason CMM exists.

Florestan wrote:
Your attitude is differant, you prefer two very important composer, Beethoven and Handel. Nothing wrong with that, a forum can only profitize by differant attitudes.

Regards Florestan

And yet I'm sure I have commented on a wider variety of composers here than most people you will find at classical forums - the 18,500+ posts are not all about Beethoven and Handel! My position may be described as 'focused'.. but not unlearnedly so... :D

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:13 am 
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Hi Rod

We all have our focus. It is only sad if you have a person in a forum which focus isn't shared by anybody. For example this very nice person in my German forum who always talks about modern music ( like Lachenmann for example) and nobody cares. There is also an opera enthusiast and he is a bit alone also. Beethoven is of course a safe bet.

Regards Florestan


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:45 pm 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
Hi Rod

We all have our focus. It is only sad if you have a person in a forum which focus isn't shared by anybody. For example this very nice person in my German forum who always talks about modern music ( like Lachenmann for example) and nobody cares. There is also an opera enthusiast and he is a bit alone also. Beethoven is of course a safe bet.

Regards Florestan

Well I think quite a few people like Beethoven and, thanks to the revival, Handel too, so my selection is hardly radical. The likes of Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart and even JSBach all rated Handel above all, so I am happy to add the name Corkin to this illustrious list. It is not for me to explain my choice, it is for others to explain if their choice is not the same as mine!

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:07 pm 
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I know that Beethoven regarded Handel as the greatest composer. Haydn on the other hand was very enthusiastic about Mozart and declared him the greatest composer of all times. Could you give me then the quotes which proof your claim that Handel was seen by all these composers as the greatest of all times?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. It all depends on your affinities. Tschaikovsky declared Handel as a "fourth class composer". That doesn't mean that Tschaikovsky was a bad composer, he is simply too far away from Handel to understand him.

All great composers have their strengths and weaknesses. Therfore I defend my list for I think it is not so completely out of the way to give you such a list, as for example Bach and Brahms are held in high esteem. There goes the saying of the "three great Bs" and this does mean "Bach, Beethoven, Brahms". This don't like of course the Brucknerians who fight for their B of Bruckner.


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:24 am 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
I know that Beethoven regarded Handel as the greatest composer. Haydn on the other hand was very enthusiastic about Mozart and declared him the greatest composer of all times. Could you give me then the quotes which proof your claim that Handel was seen by all these composers as the greatest of all times?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. It all depends on your affinities. Tschaikovsky declared Handel as a "fourth class composer". That doesn't mean that Tschaikovsky was a bad composer, he is simply too far away from Handel to understand him.

All great composers have their strengths and weaknesses. Therfore I defend my list for I think it is not so completely out of the way to give you such a list, as for example Bach and Brahms are held in high esteem. There goes the saying of the "three great Bs" and this does mean "Bach, Beethoven, Brahms". This don't like of course the Brucknerians who fight for their B of Bruckner.

Well Haydn described Handel as "the master of us all". Interpret that as you will! Beethoven's admiration of Handel above all others is well documented and is of course beyond question. Tchaikovsky thought nothing of Beethoven's late quartets too, proof that his judgment is not to be given much credence, especially considering T as a composer is not remotely in the same league as Beethoven or Handel.

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:41 pm 
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Hi Rod

Tschaikovsky is certainly a great composer. I don't care for leages. I recognize from many posts of you that you have a tendency to speak derogative about all composers who are not Handel or Beethoven. May it be Brahms, Bach, Mozart, Schumann, Tschaikovsky or a lot of others. This derogative tone annoys me.

Look: Compared with Tschaikovsky you and me are still pretty ordinary mortals. Even if he may have his weeknesses who are by the way also his strengths. You certainly don't need to know everything of Tchaikovsky but some things are indispenseble.

Rod - frankly said - with your derogative tone against some immortal composers you will not make many friends. It is also a very easy way to get a very high view of oneselve if one think that one has such an elitarian view that one can speak derogative about Brahms and Bach for example. That doesn't mean that you can prefer Beethoven and Handel. But there are other composers whose genius is still intimidating, and their genius is more important than your and mine judgement.

But I think it is futile to try to convince you of my point of view. Otherwise this is a nice forum und you are a nice person, so I will stay. I have gone some time ago, but this time I will stay. But maybe we can finish this discussion as it is completely futile.

Regards Florestan


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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:21 pm 
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JOVE THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Florestan wrote:
Hi Rod

Tschaikovsky is certainly a great composer. I don't care for leages...

Says the man who has created a league table of 109 composers...

Florestan wrote:
I recognize from many posts of you that you have a tendency to speak derogative about all composers who are not Handel or Beethoven. May it be Brahms, Bach, Mozart, Schumann, Tschaikovsky or a lot of others. This derogative tone annoys me.

Look: Compared with Tschaikovsky you and me are still pretty ordinary mortals. Even if he may have his weeknesses who are by the way also his strengths. You certainly don't need to know everything of Tchaikovsky but some things are indispenseble.

Rod - frankly said - with your derogative tone against some immortal composers you will not make many friends. It is also a very easy way to get a very high view of oneselve if one think that one has such an elitarian view that one can speak derogative about Brahms and Bach for example. That doesn't mean that you can prefer Beethoven and Handel. But there are other composers whose genius is still intimidating, and their genius is more important than your and mine judgement.

But I think it is futile to try to convince you of my point of view. Otherwise this is a nice forum und you are a nice person, so I will stay. I have gone some time ago, but this time I will stay. But maybe we can finish this discussion as it is completely futile.

Regards Florestan

In your own league table you place Beethoven and Handel far ahead of Tchaikovsky! But any critisism from me regarding any composer is usually explained in each case with reference to specific examples if you are familiar with the relevant threads in this forum. I look forward to you offering counter-arguments to anything I have written which you disagree with. I don't make random statements the likes of which I could quote you from many of those 'immortal' composers you speak of (in addition to Tchaikovsky's uneducated comment about Handel provided by your good self...).

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 Post subject: Re: A completely personal composer ranking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Hi Rod

The point in comparing composers is that you compare music you as a matter of fact shouldn't compare. Tschaikovsky has written music of wunderfull tunes and human drama. This is his strength. That said he may lack sometimes nobility. There is a nobility in Handel that is one of his strengths. I judge the strength of Handel higher than the strength of Tchaikovsky. But that doesn't mean that Tschaikovsky isn't perfect in the best of his works, for example the Pathetique. It is only a perfection of Tschaikovsky not of Handel.

You can also compare beef to meat to cod and can say that beef tastes better than cod but that cod is still wonderfull in his own right. There are certainly 60, 70 or more composers this applies to, certainly more, because I guess some composers simply eluded my attention.

All this is very difficult because you have to compare Schönberg and Grieg and come to the conclusion that they are completely differant, because Schönberg has a musical intellect Grieg misses and Grieg an ability of wonderfull tunes Schönberg misses.

Then it comes always to the point that you compare genius to genius and say: This genius is more important to me. And this was it what I was doing.

Regards Florestan


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