Classical Music Mayhem!! :: View topic - The (Pit) Orchestra of 2344

"In all the theaters there is in front of the stage a black pit filled with wretches who blow and scrape, equally indifferent to what is shouted on the stage and to what buzzes in the boxes and seats. They are possessed by one thought only: earning their supper. This assemblage of poor creatures is what is called an orchestra, and this is how an orchestra is generally constituted: two first and two second violins, usually; very rarely a viola and a cello, almost always two or three double basses....This formidable regiment of string instruments is pitted against an enemy consisting of a dozen keyed bugles, six piston trumpets, six valve trombones, two tenor tubas, two bass tubas, three Ophicleide's, a horn, three piccolos, three small clarinets in E flat, two clarinets in C, three bass clarinets(for lively tunes), and an organ (for ballet music). I should not forget four bass drums, six snare drums, and two gongs. There are no longer any oboes, bassoons, harps, kettledrums, or cymbals, these instruments having been consigned to deepest oblivion."

Hector Berlioz, Evenings..., projecting the future Italian orchestra in the year 2344

Welcome on board Graham!

This is an interesting post, but firstly I am finding myself wondering why Berlioz (assuming the attribution is correct) imagined those particular instruments to be 'consigned to deepest oblivion'? Had he a grudge against them?

As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them.

Graham1973 wrote:

As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them.

Well we have had much discussion here about what should and should not be included in a symphonic orchestra. I have a personal dislike of snaredrums in particular!

Well pit orchestras are not the same as symphony orchestras. If the information in the Wikipedia article on pit orchestra's is accurate, then the minimum size of the orchestra in the OP is about the right size for a music theater orchestra (20-30 players of which 10 are string players).

Graham1973 wrote:

Well size is a relative term, I presented a few days back an extract from a recording of the Eroica with just 28 players, and before of Beethoven piano concertos with an orchestra of 20. But the makeup of the orchestra is not all that different for Beethoven's stage music, whereas Berlioz's vision of the future is something quite drastic.

And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi?

Graham1973 wrote:

It occured to me maybe he was joking or mocking, but I find much of what I've heard of Berlioz so rough and unruly that such an orchestration might be ideal for him!

Author:	Graham1973 [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:	The (Pit) Orchestra of 2344
As it's my first post I thought I'd start off with something that caught my eye. While browsing through a website discussing an obscure instrument called the Ophicleide (Ophicleide.com) I spotted a quote attributed to Hector Berlioz in which he describes the Pit (theater) orchestra of the future (the year 2344 to be precise). I've reproduced it below exactly as it appears on the website. Quote: "In all the theaters there is in front of the stage a black pit filled with wretches who blow and scrape, equally indifferent to what is shouted on the stage and to what buzzes in the boxes and seats. They are possessed by one thought only: earning their supper. This assemblage of poor creatures is what is called an orchestra, and this is how an orchestra is generally constituted: two first and two second violins, usually; very rarely a viola and a cello, almost always two or three double basses....This formidable regiment of string instruments is pitted against an enemy consisting of a dozen keyed bugles, six piston trumpets, six valve trombones, two tenor tubas, two bass tubas, three Ophicleide's, a horn, three piccolos, three small clarinets in E flat, two clarinets in C, three bass clarinets(for lively tunes), and an organ (for ballet music). I should not forget four bass drums, six snare drums, and two gongs. There are no longer any oboes, bassoons, harps, kettledrums, or cymbals, these instruments having been consigned to deepest oblivion." Hector Berlioz, Evenings..., projecting the future Italian orchestra in the year 2344 As a bit of fun I tried to figure out just how large this orchestra might be. Pit Orchestra AD 2344 String Section 4 Violins 1 Viola (Optional) 1 Cello (Optional) 2 (or 3) Double Bass (Between 6 to 9 players) Wind Section 12 Bugles (Keyed) 6 Trumpets (Piston) 6 Trombones (Valve) 2 Tubas (Tenor) 2 Tubas (Bass) 3 Ophicleide 1 Horn 3 Piccolo 3 Clarinets (E Flat) 2 Clarinets (C) 3 Clarinets (Bass) (12 players assuming each plays multiple instruments (11 would be tripled, 1 would be quadrupled). 43 players if one per instrument) Percussion Section 4 Bass Drums 6 Snare Drums 2 Gongs (2 to 3 players) 1 Organ Maximum Size: 60 (+ 1 Conductor?) Minimum Size: 24 (+ 1 Conductor?) And finally a challenge for anyone on the forum who has some skill in composition (which I lack), that of writing a composition for the forces outlined.

Author:	Rod Corkin [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:
Welcome on board Graham! This is an interesting post, but firstly I am finding myself wondering why Berlioz (assuming the attribution is correct) imagined those particular instruments to be 'consigned to deepest oblivion'? Had he a grudge against them? I'm no composer but the nearest thing that comes to mind with such a brass heavy ensemble would be Handel's original concept of the Fireworks music, which used a colossal wind band. You can find some audio clips here... http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums. ... -t997.html Maybe others can think of more examples.

Author:	Graham1973 [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:
Rod Corkin wrote: Welcome on board Graham! This is an interesting post, but firstly I am finding myself wondering why Berlioz (assuming the attribution is correct) imagined those particular instruments to be 'consigned to deepest oblivion'? Had he a grudge against them? Sadly, no idea, I'm not an expert on Berlioz, however it is interesting to note that this piece written at a time of great change in instrumentation chooses Keyed Brass (Bugles & Ophicleide) as the winners over Woodwinds (Oboe & Bassoon). It should be noted that both Berloiz and Franz Berwald liked brass instrumentation. As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them.

Author:	Rod Corkin [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:
Graham1973 wrote: As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them. Well we have had much discussion here about what should and should not be included in a symphonic orchestra. I have a personal dislike of snaredrums in particular!

Author:	Graham1973 [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:
Rod Corkin wrote: Graham1973 wrote: As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them. Well we have had much discussion here about what should and should not be included in a symphonic orchestra. I have a personal dislike of snaredrums in particular! Well pit orchestras are not the same as symphony orchestras. If the information in the Wikipedia article on pit orchestra's is accurate, then the minimum size of the orchestra in the OP is about the right size for a music theater orchestra (20-30 players of which 10 are string players).

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Author:	Rod Corkin [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:
Graham1973 wrote: Well pit orchestras are not the same as symphony orchestras. If the information in the Wikipedia article on pit orchestra's is accurate, then the minimum size of the orchestra in the OP is about the right size for a music theater orchestra (20-30 players of which 10 are string players). Well size is a relative term, I presented a few days back an extract from a recording of the Eroica with just 28 players, and before of Beethoven piano concertos with an orchestra of 20. But the makeup of the orchestra is not all that different for Beethoven's stage music, whereas Berlioz's vision of the future is something quite drastic.

Author:	Graham1973 [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:51 am ]
Post subject:
Rod Corkin wrote: Graham1973 wrote: Well pit orchestras are not the same as symphony orchestras. If the information in the Wikipedia article on pit orchestra's is accurate, then the minimum size of the orchestra in the OP is about the right size for a music theater orchestra (20-30 players of which 10 are string players). Well size is a relative term, I presented a few days back an extract from a recording of the Eroica with just 28 players, and before of Beethoven piano concertos with an orchestra of 20. But the makeup of the orchestra is not all that different for Beethoven's stage music, whereas Berlioz's vision of the future is something quite drastic. And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi?

Author:	smileyman [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:20 am ]
Post subject:
Graham1973 wrote: And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi? I don't know. Berlioz's Requiem had a huge orchestra. Here's what he scored his Requiem for (from Wikipedia): Woodwinds 4 Flutes 2 Oboes 2 English horns 4 Clarinets in B-flat 8 Bassoons Brass 12 Horns in C, E-flat 4 Cornets in B-flat 4 Tubas Percussion 16 Timpani (10 players) 2 Bass Drums 10 pairs of Cymbals 4 Tam-tams 4 Brass Choirs Choir 1 to the North 4 Cornets 4 Trombones 2 Tubas Choir 2 to the East 4 Trumpets 4 Trombones Choir 3 to the West 4 Trumpets 4 Trombones Choir 4 to the South 4 Trumpets 4 Trombones 4 Ophicleides (usually substituted by Tubas) Voices Chorus: 80 Sopranos 60 Tenors 70 Basses Tenor solo Strings 25 Violin I 25 Violin II 20 Violas 20 Violoncellos 18 Double Basses By my count that's a total of 108 strings, 58 horns of various kinds, 32 drums of various types, and only 24 winds. In the score itself he says "The number [of performers] indicated is only relative. If space permits, the chorus may be doubled or tripled, and the orchestra be proportionally increased. But in the event of an exceptionally large chorus, say 700 to 800 voices, the entire chorus should only be used for the Dies Irae, the Tuba Mirum, and the Lacrymosa, the rest of the movements being restricted to 400 voices." Now the Requiem may have been a satire on music of the time, but I doubt it--Berlioz doesn't seem that way to me. So, if he was poking fun at orchestras of the future he was doing it at his own expense. And welcome aboard--this a great first topic!

Author:	Rod Corkin [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:47 am ]
Post subject:
Graham1973 wrote: And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi? It occured to me maybe he was joking or mocking, but I find much of what I've heard of Berlioz so rough and unruly that such an orchestration might be ideal for him!

Author:	Graham1973 [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Rod Corkin wrote: Graham1973 wrote: And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi? It occured to me maybe he was joking or mocking, but I find much of what I've heard of Berlioz so rough and unruly that such an orchestration might be ideal for him! Could be, could be, but the orchestra he is referring to is one for (presumably) Italian opera and as far as I can remember that is one thing Berloiz did not do himself. That's why I was speculating he was taking a swipe at Verdi whose early operas were also somewhat 'rough and ready', certainly as Verdi's skill in orchestration improved he was willing to revise earlier works.

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