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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| premont wrote: |
| Rod Corkin wrote: |
I agree, though concerning Komen I have his CD of 'Das Lebewohl' (as Beethoven really meant), and I would say it is a little sloppy, lacking in momentum. I much prefer Melvyn Tan on EMI who is much tighter with this piece. You'll hear some of Tan's recording on my next batch of tracks. |
I don´t think "sloppy" is the right word. The difference between Komen and Tan is IMO that Komen is the more expressive, Tan the more cool. |
Well it of course it depends on one's preferred approach to this music. I think the tempi in the allegros here should be quite strict with a good momentum, otherwise this music can sound a little too sentimental. As you say Tan's approach is more 'cool', but the acoustic is not so colorful in the Tan CD, so this is an additional cooling factor. I think Tan's Waldstein and Appassionata are excellent, though not all of his Beethoven recordings are of this standard.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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Masolino
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Joined: 05 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Well it of course it depends on one's preferred approach to this music. I think the tempi in the allegros here should be quite strict with a good momentum, otherwise this music can sound a little too sentimental. As you say Tan's approach is more 'cool', but the acoustic is not so colorful in the Tan CD, so this is an additional cooling factor. I think Tan's Waldstein and Appassionata are excellent, though not all of his Beethoven recordings are of this standard. |
Good that EMI has now grouped all Tan's Beethoven recordings in one inexpensive Virgin black box and sold it for cheap. I dislike his playing of Schubert and Mozart but will try his Beethoven - no big loss if it turns out to be just as boring. 
Anthony Newman's performances of Waldstein and Appasionata (on a Clementi fortepiano) are truly way over the top and quite exciting in their way - too bad he didn't use a Viennese action instrument.
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premont
SERGEANT MAJOR
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| In my search for recordings of LvB´s pianosonates I found this interesting transcription of the opus 2 sonates for string quartet made by an anonymous arranger and edited 1828.
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premont
SERGEANT MAJOR
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| And concerning period instruments, must it be strictly period, and how many years deviation may be allowed. Listen to this and try to tell, at what time the piano in use was built.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Masolino wrote: |
Good that EMI has now grouped all Tan's Beethoven recordings in one inexpensive Virgin black box and sold it for cheap. I dislike his playing of Schubert and Mozart but will try his Beethoven - no big loss if it turns out to be just as boring.
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Did I say buy the complete 'Tan edition'? Buy it for the pieces I recommend, but don't come here and complain about his other more lack lustre attempts in the 'set'. I know why EMI ended Tan's run of Beethoven, Tan was simply too bored with the music to make a good effort, and EMI's second rate sound engineers didn't help. What a pity.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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Masolino
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Did I say buy the complete 'Tan edition'? Buy it for the pieces I recommend, but don't come here and complain about his other more lack lustre attempts in the 'set'. I know why EMI ended Tan's run of Beethoven, Tan was simply too bored with the music to make a good effort, and EMI's second rate sound engineers didn't help. What a pity.
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Tan appears to be bored with most of the music he has chosen to record. His bad way outweighs his good. There! I am done with my complaining. 
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 7594
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Masolino wrote: |
| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Did I say buy the complete 'Tan edition'? Buy it for the pieces I recommend, but don't come here and complain about his other more lack lustre attempts in the 'set'. I know why EMI ended Tan's run of Beethoven, Tan was simply too bored with the music to make a good effort, and EMI's second rate sound engineers didn't help. What a pity.
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Tan appears to be bored with most of the music he has chosen to record. His bad way outweighs his good. There! I am done with my complaining. |
No worries, I agree, but on the rare occasion he's good, he's good.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| premont wrote: |
| And concerning period instruments, must it be strictly period, and how many years deviation may be allowed. Listen to this and try to tell, at what time the piano in use was built. |
A rather heavy handed treatment of Op31/1 Allegro vivace, not much vivace here! Komen does a much better job of this movement. This piano sounds to me pretty much a modern design (ie anything from the late 1800s to today). Will you enlighten us?
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Here are a couple more early Beethoven tracks featuring the fortepiano in ensemble mode, the strings being 'authentic' too of course, and they sound all the better for it as well. These tracks clearly demonstrate the superior balance to the sound between the respective instruments compared to what you get with a Steinway. These are just glorious performances. Listen to Beethoven's wild runs on the piano in the trio and tell me Beethoven had a Steinway in mind when composing this! The cello sonta is just another great allegro from Beethoven, and that's as great as it gets really. The piano are in both cases Walter copies (1790s).
Trio by the Castle Trio on Virgin:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Trios-Opp-Castle/dp/B00005A9NX
Cello sonata by Anssi Karttunen & Tuija Hakkila
http://www.nutsie.com/album/Apex:%20Beethoven%20Works%20for%20cello%20and%20fortepiano%20vol.%202
Any comments welcome...
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
Last edited by Rod Corkin on Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 7594
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Here are a couple more early Beethoven tracks featuring the fortepiano in ensemble mode...
Any comments welcome... |
Has everyone got this music too?? If so your comments are still valid! If members have their own examples from Beethoven or other composers they would like to present please feel free to add them to this thread.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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premont
SERGEANT MAJOR
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 118
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Here are a couple more early Beethoven tracks featuring the fortepiano in ensemble mode...
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Has everyone got this music too?? If so your comments are still valid! If members have their own examples from Beethoven or other composers they would like to present please feel free to add them to this thread. |
I have just downloaded the tracks. Excuse me for staying absent for a few days more, since my job demands it.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 7594
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| premont wrote: |
I have just downloaded the tracks. Excuse me for staying absent for a few days more, since my job demands it. |
You didn't tell us what the piano was in the track you posted before.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I now present the first batch of popular music from Beethoven's 'middle' period, namely the Kreutzer, the Waldstein and the Appassionata.
The piano sonatas are by Melvyn tan from his CD 'Beethoven Piano Sonatas' on EMI, CDC 7 49330 2.
Buy at Amazon
The violin Sonata by Jos van Immerseel and Jaap Schroeder from the CD 'Beethoven Violin Sonatas Nr 5 & 9' on DHM, 05472 77413 2.
Buy at Amazon
Both disks demonstrate the colour, transparency and dynamism these instruments bring to Beethoven's robust textures. Both pianos are Viennese School designs, Tan uses a Streicher copy circa 1814, Immerseel uses a Graf from the 1820s.
Any comments welcome.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the final selection of Beethoven music with fortepiano from his 'middle period'.
Firstly the final movement from the Sonata Op78, a piece Beethoven rated higher than the 'Moonlight'. A great performance by Komen here, using an original Viennese fortepiano by Salvatore La Grassa (1815).
A similarly good rendition of the opening tour de force for the piano from the Choral Fantasia op80, the piano this time a copy of a model by Louis Dunkeln of Munich (1815). Not quite chamber music I admit!
Finally a reasonable effort of the first movement of the 'Archduke' Trio Op97 by the Trondlin Trio. The piano here is a copy of a model by Graf of Vienna from early 1820s.
A.C.W...
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the first installment of Beethoven tracks from his 'late' period, Namely the piano sonata Op101 and the two cello sonatas Op102. The pianos here are original 1820s models by Graf and a copy by a model by Fritz from 1815. Transparency in particular with these robust Allegros.
The CDs..
Op101 (fortepiano by Conrad Graf of Vienna, c.1824). Paul Badura-Skoda. 'Beethoven Complete Sonatas for fortepiano Vol 8.' Astree E8698.
Op102 Nr1 (copy of fortepiano by Johann Fritz of Vienna, c.1815). Hidemi Suzuki (vc), Yoshohiko Kojima (fp). DHM CD 82876 55783 2.
Buy it!
Op102 Nr2. (fortepiano by Conrad Graf of Vienna, c.1827) Allegro Fugato. Anssi Karttunen (vc), Tuija Hakkila (fp). Apex 2564611442.
Buy it!
Any comments welcome!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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premont
SERGEANT MAJOR
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
| premont wrote: |
I have just downloaded the tracks. Excuse me for staying absent for a few days more, since my job demands it. |
You didn't tell us what the piano was in the track you posted before. |
The piano is a Grotrian-Steinweg from 1914. It has a more - but not much more - individual sound than the usual Steinway IMO, but the recording (Sonatas 16 and 18 ) was (without further specification) advertised as being a LvB recording on a historical piano!
The pianist is Gudula Kremers. I like her warm and calm playing. The recording was released by Cavalli records.
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 7594
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| premont wrote: |
| Rod Corkin wrote: |
| premont wrote: |
I have just downloaded the tracks. Excuse me for staying absent for a few days more, since my job demands it. |
You didn't tell us what the piano was in the track you posted before. |
The piano is a Grotrian-Steinweg from 1914. It has a more - but not much more - individual sound than the usual Steinway IMO, but the recording (Sonatas 16 and 18 ) was (without further specification) advertised as being a LvB recording on a historical piano!
The pianist is Gudula Kremers. I like her warm and calm playing. The recording was released by Cavalli records. |
That makes sense to me from what I heard. There is a little difference yes compared to the usual Steinway sound. I didn't think this piano was a Steinway. Have you sampled any of my more recent fortepiano tracks?
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My Name is Nobody
LIEUTENANT GENERAL
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 1975
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Corkin wrote: |
Here is the first installment of Beethoven tracks from his 'late' period, Namely the piano sonata Op101 and the two cello sonatas Op102. The pianos here are original 1820s models by Graf and a copy by a model by Fritz from 1815. Transparency in particular with these robust Allegros.
The CDs..
Op101 (fortepiano by Conrad Graf of Vienna, c.1824). Paul Badura-Skoda. 'Beethoven Complete Sonatas for fortepiano Vol 8.' Astree E8698.
Op102 Nr1 (copy of fortepiano by Johann Fritz of Vienna, c.1815). Hidemi Suzuki (vc), Yoshohiko Kojima (fp). DHM CD 82876 55783 2.
Buy it!
Op102 Nr2. (fortepiano by Conrad Graf of Vienna, c.1827) Allegro Fugato. Anssi Karttunen (vc), Tuija Hakkila (fp). Apex 2564611442.
Buy it!
Any comments welcome! |
Skoda..well that's not my cup of coffee, and I am being mild. I think his erratic playing disturbing, his choice of tempo changes are irritating, and his playing far from immaculate...
Suzuki/Kojima, is better, still don't like the sound, and this incessant pushing of the tempi, the music has little breathing room here....
Karttunen/Hakkila is the best so far, but still the force and physical power with which it is played is disturbing to me. I like the tempi fast, that's okay, but the accents/and the force with which the bows are used is too much for relaxed listening, my two cents...
Last edited by My Name is Nobody on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Harry wrote: |
Skoda..well that not my cup of coffee, and I am being mild. I think his erratic playing disturbing, his choice of tempo changes are irritating, and his playing far from immaculate...
Suzuki/Kojima, is better, still don't like the sound, and this incessant pushing of the tempi, the music has little breathing room here....
Karttunen/Hakkila is the best so far, but still the force and physical power with which it is played is disturbing to me. I like the tempi fast, that's okay, but the accents/and the force with which the bows are used is too much for relaxed listening, my two cents... |
Thanks Harry
This is interesting as Badura-Skoda's effort with the march from op101 is the only version I have ever heard which, for me, is near the truth of it. For starters Beethoven asks Vivace for this piece, but how often to we hear this? I think Barura-Skoda gives is the right tempo, very quick compared to usual performances from my experience. Also consider the 'trio' section. B-S plays it near enough in the main tempo, whereas usually one hears it performed much slower. But I do not think Beethoven asks for it to be played much slower!
With Suzuki/Kojima the performance is good but I would have preferred a sightly quicker tempo which is more in line with what Beethoven asks.
Karttunen/Hakkila is also good but for me could have done with a fractionally slower tempo, but only fractionally. The fugue does have a swing to it, but there must be tense energy here too.
The thing is Harry this is pretty robust music by default, and Beethoven asks for quicker tempos than we usually hear today. But the textures are more transparent with period instruments that is for sure. This is not divertimento music for the tea-rooms of the middle-classes! 
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Rod Corkin
THE MIGHTY THUNDERER
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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A couple more tracks from Beethoven's late sonatas, the fugue from op106 and the first two movements from 109, by Paul Badura-Skoda from Vols 8 and 9 of his complete Beethoven sonatas on period instruments set on Astree label. Alas this set seems to be no longer available. He uses again his 1824 piano by Conrad Graf of Vienna. I think these are great, the piano sound is as beautiful as its looks. As Badura-Skoda says in the liner notes, though the sound of the instrument is not as great as that of modern pianos it has a wealth of colour unimaginable on a Steinway..
After this I'll present some extracts from the last bagatelles and the Diabelli variations, and then the book is closed.
Here is a pic of Beethoven's own Graf (though the legs are not original).
Any comments welcome.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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