Classical Music Mayhem!!

As it's my first post I thought I'd start off with something that caught my eye.

While browsing through a website discussing an obscure instrument called the Ophicleide (Ophicleide.com) I spotted a quote attributed to Hector Berlioz in which he describes the Pit (theater) orchestra of the future (the year 2344 to be precise). I've reproduced it below exactly as it appears on the website.



As a bit of fun I tried to figure out just how large this orchestra might be.

Pit Orchestra AD 2344

String Section

4 Violins
1 Viola (Optional)
1 Cello (Optional)
2 (or 3) Double Bass

(Between 6 to 9 players)


Wind Section

12 Bugles (Keyed)
6 Trumpets (Piston)
6 Trombones (Valve)
2 Tubas (Tenor)
2 Tubas (Bass)
3 Ophicleide
1 Horn
3 Piccolo
3 Clarinets (E Flat)
2 Clarinets (C)
3 Clarinets (Bass)

(12 players assuming each plays multiple instruments (11 would be tripled, 1 would be quadrupled). 43 players if one per instrument)


Percussion Section

4 Bass Drums
6 Snare Drums
2 Gongs

(2 to 3 players)


1 Organ

Maximum Size: 60 (+ 1 Conductor?)
Minimum Size: 24 (+ 1 Conductor?)

And finally a challenge for anyone on the forum who has some skill in composition (which I lack), that of writing a composition for the forces outlined.

Welcome on board Graham!

This is an interesting post, but firstly I am finding myself wondering why Berlioz (assuming the attribution is correct) imagined those particular instruments to be 'consigned to deepest oblivion'? Had he a grudge against them?

I'm no composer but the nearest thing that comes to mind with such a brass heavy ensemble would be Handel's original concept of the Fireworks music, which used a colossal wind band. You can find some audio clips here...
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums. ... -t997.html

Maybe others can think of more examples.

Sadly, no idea, I'm not an expert on Berlioz, however it is interesting to note that this piece written at a time of great change in instrumentation chooses Keyed Brass (Bugles & Ophicleide) as the winners over Woodwinds (Oboe & Bassoon). It should be noted that both Berloiz and Franz Berwald liked brass instrumentation.

As for Harps/Kettledrums, it could simply be a case that given this is the authors view of the future form of a theater pit orchestra that there was no room in the pit to fit them.

Well we have had much discussion here about what should and should not be included in a symphonic orchestra. I have a personal dislike of snaredrums in particular!

Well pit orchestras are not the same as symphony orchestras. If the information in the Wikipedia article on pit orchestra's is accurate, then the minimum size of the orchestra in the OP is about the right size for a music theater orchestra (20-30 players of which 10 are string players).

Well size is a relative term, I presented a few days back an extract from a recording of the Eroica with just 28 players, and before of Beethoven piano concertos with an orchestra of 20. But the makeup of the orchestra is not all that different for Beethoven's stage music, whereas Berlioz's vision of the future is something quite drastic.

And probably satirical, I think I've located the book the quote came from on Amazon. The full title is "Evenings with the Orchestra". From the information on the Amazon page, it would appear that he was 'having a go' at certain trends in operatic music...Verdi?

I don't know. Berlioz's Requiem had a huge orchestra. Here's what he scored his Requiem for (from Wikipedia):

Woodwinds
4 Flutes
2 Oboes
2 English horns
4 Clarinets in B-flat
8 Bassoons

Brass
12 Horns in C, E-flat
4 Cornets in B-flat
4 Tubas

Percussion
16 Timpani (10 players)
2 Bass Drums
10 pairs of Cymbals
4 Tam-tams


4 Brass Choirs
Choir 1 to the North
4 Cornets
4 Trombones
2 Tubas

Choir 2 to the East
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones

Choir 3 to the West
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones

Choir 4 to the South
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones
4 Ophicleides (usually substituted by Tubas)


Voices
Chorus:
80 Sopranos
60 Tenors
70 Basses

Tenor solo

Strings
25 Violin I
25 Violin II
20 Violas
20 Violoncellos
18 Double Basses

By my count that's a total of 108 strings, 58 horns of various kinds, 32 drums of various types, and only 24 winds. In the score itself he says "The number [of performers] indicated is only relative. If space permits, the chorus may be doubled or tripled, and the orchestra be proportionally increased. But in the event of an exceptionally large chorus, say 700 to 800 voices, the entire chorus should only be used for the Dies Irae, the Tuba Mirum, and the Lacrymosa, the rest of the movements being restricted to 400 voices."

Now the Requiem may have been a satire on music of the time, but I doubt it--Berlioz doesn't seem that way to me. So, if he was poking fun at orchestras of the future he was doing it at his own expense.


And welcome aboard--this a great first topic!

It occured to me maybe he was joking or mocking, but I find much of what I've heard of Berlioz so rough and unruly that such an orchestration might be ideal for him!

Could be, could be, but the orchestra he is referring to is one for (presumably) Italian opera and as far as I can remember that is one thing Berloiz did not do himself.

That's why I was speculating he was taking a swipe at Verdi whose early operas were also somewhat 'rough and ready', certainly as Verdi's skill in orchestration improved he was willing to revise earlier works.