Rod,

The Missa Solemnis is a concert piece and not one for devotion. It's absurdly long for a start. It's highly theatrical. That's its strength and that's also its weakness. The B Minor Mass, on the other hand, is written for a real church service. They are two very different works. I love them both although, as Christian music, Bach's is far superior and heart felt.

Beethoven's great Missa Solemnis is a masterpiece in its own way.

Robert Newman wrote:

Rod, The Missa Solemnis is a concert piece and not one for devotion. It's absurdly long for a start. It's highly theatrical. That's its strength and that's also its weakness. The B Minor Mass, on the other hand, is written for a real church service. They are two very different works. I love them both although, as Christian music, Bach's is far superior and heart felt. Beethoven's great Missa Solemnis is a masterpiece in its own way.

I find this a bizarre statement. Beethoven doesn't compose 'devotional music', thank God, but his learning of the older traditions are clear in this piece. Absurdly long you say? It fits neatly on one disk whereas the B minor needs two! If anything I'd say it is the B minor that is long way beyond it's music worth. What a trial for the congregation, but then maybe that was part of its purpose.

You say you love them both but if you feel no heart in the Solemn Mass then you have no heart. Bach always subjugates himself and the listener before God, something I cannot abide, whereas Beethoven still maintains a noble human dignity even before his maker. For Beethoven the path to God is through humanity not subjugation.

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I have to offer support for Rob here. Beethoven's Mass might be (and that's an if statement if I ever saw one) a better musical composition, but it's not religious in nature. It's purpose isn't to lift up the hearer to come closer to God, but to impress with dramatic intensity.

I find I prefer Bach's manner in this regard. I also run into this same problem with Handel's oratorios--great music, but basically a secular work thinly cloaked with a religious veneer. There are a few great exceptions (Messiah being the primary example of this), but overall I think this holds true.

I don't think length has anything to do with it, but I just wanted to point out that something can be long, yet short at the same time (the reverse is also true).

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smileyman wrote:

I have to offer support for Rob here. Beethoven's Mass might be (and that's an if statement if I ever saw one) a better musical composition, but it's not religious in nature. It's purpose isn't to lift up the hearer to come closer to God, but to impress with dramatic intensity. I find I prefer Bach's manner in this regard. I also run into this same problem with Handel's oratorios--great music, but basically a secular work thinly cloaked with a religious veneer. There are a few great exceptions (Messiah being the primary example of this), but overall I think this holds true. I don't think length has anything to do with it, but I just wanted to point out that something can be long, yet short at the same time (the reverse is also true).

When did I ever say the Solemn Mass was a piece of real bona fide church music??? Please no more of this. Handel's oratorios similarly are NOT AT ALL church music, they are music dramas on Biblical subjects, I have said this all along. Please GET A GRIP gentlemen.

But don't make me laugh by stating Bach produced anything better, please, or I may spill by beer, er I mean Dr Carlsberg's Special Medicine.

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Rod Corkin wrote:

When did I ever say the Solemn Mass was a piece of real bona fide church music??? Please no more of this. Handel's oratorios similarly are NOT church music, I have said this all along. Please GET A GRIP gentlemen.

I'm not talking about genuine church music, i.e. music designed for church services. I'm talking about the religious, uplifting, spiritual nature of the works involved, which has little to do with the building it's designed to be performed in. Messiah is such a piece. So is Bach's Mass in B Minor. I'm not convinced that Beethoven's Missa Solemnis (great as it is), is a religious work in this sense.

Quote:

But don't make me laugh by stating Bach produced anything better, please, or I may spill by beer, er I mean Dr Carlsberg's Special Medicine.

Well we know that in your classical world there are only two composers--Beethoven and Handel, and that everything they wrote is supreme, whilst nothing else can come close. You're welcome to that opinion, but I think it's a shame that you're so short-sighted in your musical tastes.

_________________
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smileyman wrote:

Well we know that in your classical world there are only two composers--Beethoven and Handel, and that everything they wrote is supreme, whilst nothing else can come close. You're welcome to that opinion, but I think it's a shame that you're so short-sighted in your musical tastes.

I find it strange that you chastise me for having 'two composers' when in this thread you are saying your ONE composer is above them both!?

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*Jumps into ring.*

I think Mozart's masses are brilliant works, some of the best church music ever written!

*Jumps out of ring and runs away as mobs chase after him with pitchforks and torches.*

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Sorin Eushayson wrote:

*Jumps into ring.* I think Mozart's masses are brilliant works, some of the best church music ever written! *Jumps out of ring and runs away as mobs chase after him with pitchforks and torches.*

It's not me you got to run from SE. I'm just sitting here quietly, with my medicine...

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Robert Newman wrote:

Rod, The Missa Solemnis is a concert piece and not one for devotion. It's absurdly long for a start. It's highly theatrical. That's its strength and that's also its weakness. The B Minor Mass, on the other hand, is written for a real church service. They are two very different works. I love them both although, as Christian music, Bach's is far superior and heart felt. Beethoven's great Missa Solemnis is a masterpiece in its own way.

It occurred to me Rob that The B Minor Mass is usually performed as a concert piece too these days. For example..
http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2008/Jan-Jun08/bach2206.htm
In fact I'd be surprised if it is ever performed now in the manner of its original purpose. Why is that so might I ask?

But the 'theatre' as you say in the Missa Solemnis is not new even in 'real' church music, only with Beethoven it is bigger and better. Bach himself has a obligato solo violin part in the B Minor, as we find in the Benedictus of the MS - something that has been criticised with the MS, but Bach, as always, remains immune...

Also you can have what is effectively a concert performed in a church too! For example a number of Handel oratorios have been performed here in churches in recent years and in times of old, though Handel produced them all for the theatre, Messiah included.

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Rod Corkin wrote:

smileyman wrote: Well we know that in your classical world there are only two composers--Beethoven and Handel, and that everything they wrote is supreme, whilst nothing else can come close. You're welcome to that opinion, but I think it's a shame that you're so short-sighted in your musical tastes. I find it strange that you chastise me for having 'two composers' when in this thread you are saying your ONE composer is above them both!?

In this regard, yes. Did he write better symphonies than Beethoven? No. Did Bach write better oratorios than Handel? No. Was he every bit the composer that they were? Yes. Sometimes it seems as if the only two composers you've ever listened to are Beethoven and Handel--obviously that's not true (I hope not anyway), but that's how it comes. across.

We're straying off topic here anyway, so back to the original poll question--which is better? I'm going to waffle and proclaim them both worthy endeavors. The Mass in B Minor is (for me anyway) a better religious work, whilst Beethoven's Missa Solmenis is a great dramatic work. My wife prefers the Missa Solemnis, and couldn't get into the B Minor Mass at all.

As the saying goes, different strokes for different folks.

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smileyman wrote:

In this regard, yes. Did he write better symphonies than Beethoven? No. Did Bach write better oratorios than Handel? No. Was he every bit the composer that they were? Yes. Sometimes it seems as if the only two composers you've ever listened to are Beethoven and Handel--obviously that's not true (I hope not anyway), but that's how it comes. across. We're straying off topic here anyway, so back to the original poll question--which is better? I'm going to waffle and proclaim them both worthy endeavors. The Mass in B Minor is (for me anyway) a better religious work, whilst Beethoven's Missa Solmenis is a great dramatic work. My wife prefers the Missa Solemnis, and couldn't get into the B Minor Mass at all. As the saying goes, different strokes for different folks.

It depends how you view the term 'religious work', which really is beyond the scope, and the purpose, of this topic. From an artistic perspective even the most genuine church music must be judged on its artistic merit, not how closely it follows the contemporary religious doctrine. Beethoven regarded the MS as his greatest work, that factor alone should make everyone think twice about his piece. You seem to have a preference for doctrinal music, hence your taste for Bach, whereas I am the exact opposite, hence my taste for Beethoven.

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smileyman wrote:

We're straying off topic here anyway, so back to the original poll question--which is better? I'm going to waffle and proclaim them both worthy endeavors. The Mass in B Minor is (for me anyway) a better religious work, whilst Beethoven's Missa Solmenis is a great dramatic work. My wife prefers the Missa Solemnis, and couldn't get into the B Minor Mass at all.

I think it depends on the recording you're listening to. I have one by Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic that's all over the place: overly slow, sloppy singing that sounds more like shouting (his Mozart Requiem recording does this too), even a few out of sync moments. It wasn't until I got the John Eliot Gardiner version that I really saw the beauty of this work.

The Missa Solemnis is "religious" in its own right. As I noted in the Missa Solemnis thread, Beethoven said his chief intention whilst writing the Missa Solemnis was to "arouse religious emotion in singers and auditors alike, and to render this emotion lasting" (which he does to great effect, methinks!) and noted on the score that it was a prayer for inner and outer peace. Sure, it doesn't follow the standard expectations of previous masses, but it still stands as a masterpiece of the Christian Church music tradition. That's how I see it, anyhow.

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Sorin Eushayson wrote:

I think it depends on the recording you're listening to. I have one by Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic that's all over the place: overly slow, sloppy singing that sounds more like shouting (his Mozart Requiem recording does this too), even a few out of sync moments. It wasn't until I got the John Eliot Gardiner version that I really saw the beauty of this work.

This is a valid point, certainly in the case of the MS. Really I don't even consider most of those old recordings (and I've had a few of them come my way over the years), they simply hadn't a clue with this piece. Indeed of you haven't heard Gardiner's or the Hanover Band's recordings of the MS, then I'd go so far as to say you haven't really heard this music.

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Rod Corkin wrote:

It depends how you view the term 'religious work', which really is beyond the scope, and the purpose, of this topic. From an artistic perspective even the most genuine church music must be judged on its artistic merit, not how closely it follows the contemporary religious doctrine. Beethoven regarded the MS as his greatest work, that factor alone should make everyone think twice about his piece. You seem to have a preference for doctrinal music, hence your taste for Bach, whereas I am the exact opposite, hence my taste for Beethoven.

I've been thinking about this, and you're probably more right than I'd like to admit, even though my religious doctrines are quite different than those espoused by Herr Bach. I suspect that's why I'm more attracted to his religious works than those of Handel or Beethoven. Excellent observation there.

As far as the recordings go, I've only ever heard the edition on the DG complete Beethoven set, so I don't have a full comparison. I will order the Gardiner set this weekend, and once it comes I will give it a good listen and then return and report.

_________________
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Rod is this the Gardiner version you were referring to? (That portrait sure does show Beethoven in a grouchy mood doesn't it?)



Amazon Link

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"I learned more from a three minute record, than I ever did in school."

Even though it was mentioned several pages back, I want to give my two-cents' worth about Beethoven's Mass in C, Op. 86. I'm listening to it right now, actually (the version by Gardiner). The Credo just started, it gives me goosebumps how Beethoven begins this, wow! Anyhow, definitely one of the best masses I've ever heard, and - seeing as though mass is one of my favourite musical genres - I've certainly heard a lot of them! I'm astonished that this was not well-received when Beethoven debuted it. In fact, my top-4 favourite masses (not counting Requiems) are as follows:

1. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis
2. Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor
3. Bach's Mass in B Minor
4. Beethoven's Mass in C Major

I know I could get some Bach people angry at me by placing Mozart's Great Mass ahead of the Mass in B Minor, but that's how it goes (my music professor certainly would have thrown a fit if he saw how far back I put Bach's masterpiece)! And I know you'd probably put Op. 86 in front of both, Rod, so there you have it! Op. 86 makes my list of unsung masterpieces, though; truly an amazing piece of music. Just got to the "Et Vitam Venturi," so I'll end with a hardy, "Amen!"

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smileyman wrote:

Rod is this the Gardiner version you were referring to? (That portrait sure does show Beethoven in a grouchy mood doesn't it?) Amazon Link

Sorry I missed this post, yes this is the recording.

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Sorin Eushayson wrote:

Even though it was mentioned several pages back, I want to give my two-cents' worth about Beethoven's Mass in C, Op. 86. I'm listening to it right now, actually (the version by Gardiner). The Credo just started, it gives me goosebumps how Beethoven begins this, wow! Anyhow, definitely one of the best masses I've ever heard, and - seeing as though mass is one of my favourite musical genres - I've certainly heard a lot of them! I'm astonished that this was not well-received when Beethoven debuted it. In fact, my top-4 favourite masses (not counting Requiems) are as follows: 1. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis 2. Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor 3. Bach's Mass in B Minor 4. Beethoven's Mass in C Major I know I could get some Bach people angry at me by placing Mozart's Great Mass ahead of the Mass in B Minor, but that's how it goes (my music professor certainly would have thrown a fit if he saw how far back I put Bach's masterpiece)! And I know you'd probably put Op. 86 in front of both, Rod, so there you have it! Op. 86 makes my list of unsung masterpieces, though; truly an amazing piece of music. Just got to the "Et Vitam Venturi," so I'll end with a hardy, "Amen!"

Well at the end of the day for me it boils down to whether you like the composer's style, the relative 'greatness' doesn't really come into play. I'd say Gardiner's Op86 is still the best you can get for this piece, but I think there is room for a better version. Maybe give the baton to that lazy Mr Savall!!

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Rod Corkin wrote:

...Maybe give the baton to that lazy Mr Savall!!

Speaking of which, did you forget about that online petition again, Rod? Third time's the charm, I guess!

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Sorin Eushayson wrote:

Rod Corkin wrote: ...Maybe give the baton to that lazy Mr Savall!! Speaking of which, did you forget about that online petition again, Rod? Third time's the charm, I guess!

Fear not, I did absolutely forget.. again.

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